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Home Theater Setups => Finished => Topic started by: bmoney on November 12, 2016, 06:24:07 PM

Title: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on November 12, 2016, 06:24:07 PM
Named for My 2 year old Sadie and my 5 year old Max

bought our house brand new in 2014....had no plans for a few years to build a dedicated theater..but the wife gave me a V-day present saying I could start it up....I owned all the equipment, just needed a room.  believe it or not it only cost 2200$ all in to go from empty basement to the finished product..also only took 1.5 months from start to finish (working 3-4 hours every night after the kids went to bed)..its 100% DIY including 11 speakers, and 4 subs

so without further ado....here are the pics:

Before:


After:


this is whats behind the screen:


and the back left corner:


room is 10'10"x16.5'x7.75'

absorption panels built into front stage and side/rear wall fabric frames

Front stage: 3 x DIY 1099's
4 surrounds: DIY Volt 6's
4 Atmos on ceiling: DIY volt 6's
Subwoofers x 4: 2-si18 2-si18ds4

processor/amplification:
(2) inuke 6000dsp
(3) XPA-100
Denon x7200wa
minidsp 2x4

Screen:
DIY AT screen White/black Millskin spandex 130" diagnol 2.35

PJ:
JVC rs600

4k UHD br player:
OPPO 203





Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on November 13, 2016, 10:15:09 PM
You did an awesome job, and getting it up that fast is great! I bet you, and your family are loving watching movies in your new HT now! I am in ours most of the day everyday (retired), and we love having Movie Nights with some friends every week or two.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSMike on November 14, 2016, 12:24:38 AM
bmoney, theater looks good. :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on November 14, 2016, 07:53:08 AM
thanks guys...I watch at least one movie a night...unless there is a big gane on or somthing...i knew i always wanted one but never knew I would use it as much or look forward to going dpwn there with my 5 year old for our before bed time movie every night :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on November 14, 2016, 12:13:42 PM
Do you watch TV on the big screen too? I watch TV, and surf the web on ours with it, but I do have to say text is not the greatest on the HT screen.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on November 14, 2016, 12:17:18 PM
nope...its 100% for movies only...

dont want to "waste" bulb life on TV haha
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on November 14, 2016, 12:34:49 PM
nope...its 100% for movies only...

dont want to "waste" bulb life on TV haha
Yeah, I can understand that... I go through a bulb about once a year with my AE8000 in ECO mode (5000 hours). This is one of the reasons i would like a LED or Laser projector, but I just can't afford the cash it would cost. Watching TV shows really does change them to like mini movies though on the big HT screen vs watching them on a FP in our living room.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on November 14, 2016, 12:39:52 PM
this is whats behind the screen:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/2163162D-DE04-4609-B631-D2DB08A19744_zpszj5dw6ur.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/2163162D-DE04-4609-B631-D2DB08A19744_zpszj5dw6ur.jpg.html)

and the back left corner:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/651D4F2E-7C49-4812-8E27-75221E90CC8C_zpsswbnemy1.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/651D4F2E-7C49-4812-8E27-75221E90CC8C_zpsswbnemy1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on November 14, 2016, 12:47:39 PM
You built those speakers! Now i know why your room turned out so nice...you've got skillz!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on November 15, 2016, 07:16:56 AM
some screenshots using iphone6 camera....movie is Tomorrowland upscaled to 4k

(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/7499B41F-CC97-4565-A46A-48D82101191F_zpsenwi0bv1.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/7499B41F-CC97-4565-A46A-48D82101191F_zpsenwi0bv1.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/7F5C1E0E-CB72-4F8A-A214-CEFC6D86AD0F_zpsemryuc4i.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/7F5C1E0E-CB72-4F8A-A214-CEFC6D86AD0F_zpsemryuc4i.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/98550008-2A56-4649-B135-83D9BBB290B7_zps8sua5byy.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/98550008-2A56-4649-B135-83D9BBB290B7_zps8sua5byy.jpg.html)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on November 15, 2016, 07:20:00 AM
You built those speakers! Now i know why your room turned out so nice...you've got skillz!

haha thanks yeah I built them...they are unfinished though because they are just behind the screen....the sub you see in the back left I did finish (obviously)

here are some shots of putting the speakers together:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/5D68959E-9BE7-4FAE-A3DB-CD83A24D764D_zpsxyqq7xjv.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/5D68959E-9BE7-4FAE-A3DB-CD83A24D764D_zpsxyqq7xjv.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/0EF25628-A817-4F96-86CA-633868168869_zpsnm0ugquq.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/0EF25628-A817-4F96-86CA-633868168869_zpsnm0ugquq.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/1CDB601E-ADB8-4D07-84B4-EF94626DFA60_zps0v5omjqd.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/1CDB601E-ADB8-4D07-84B4-EF94626DFA60_zps0v5omjqd.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/B9783388-B609-4C4D-9F98-7BBBDCF8DFDF_zpstciuhwqh.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/B9783388-B609-4C4D-9F98-7BBBDCF8DFDF_zpstciuhwqh.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/282C56C4-101A-4C7A-B8E6-E5066A1D460A_zpsnuwdcwcq.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/282C56C4-101A-4C7A-B8E6-E5066A1D460A_zpsnuwdcwcq.jpg.html)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSMike on November 15, 2016, 08:23:38 AM
Do you watch TV on the big screen too? I watch TV, and surf the web on ours with it, but I do have to say text is not the greatest on the HT screen.

Text is nice and sharp on my JVC.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSMike on November 15, 2016, 08:25:43 AM
Yeah, I can understand that... I go through a bulb about once a year with my AE8000 in ECO mode (5000 hours). This is one of the reasons i would like a LED or Laser projector, but I just can't afford the cash it would cost. Watching TV shows really does change them to like mini movies though on the big HT screen vs watching them on a FP in our living room.

You might want to call and check on pricing for a laser or LED projector. We have some on closeout.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSMike on November 15, 2016, 08:29:20 AM
haha thanks yeah I built them...they are unfinished though because they are just behind the screen....the sub you see in the back left I did finish (obviously)

here are some shots of putting the speakers together:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/5D68959E-9BE7-4FAE-A3DB-CD83A24D764D_zpsxyqq7xjv.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/5D68959E-9BE7-4FAE-A3DB-CD83A24D764D_zpsxyqq7xjv.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/0EF25628-A817-4F96-86CA-633868168869_zpsnm0ugquq.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/0EF25628-A817-4F96-86CA-633868168869_zpsnm0ugquq.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/1CDB601E-ADB8-4D07-84B4-EF94626DFA60_zps0v5omjqd.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/1CDB601E-ADB8-4D07-84B4-EF94626DFA60_zps0v5omjqd.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/B9783388-B609-4C4D-9F98-7BBBDCF8DFDF_zpstciuhwqh.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/B9783388-B609-4C4D-9F98-7BBBDCF8DFDF_zpstciuhwqh.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/282C56C4-101A-4C7A-B8E6-E5066A1D460A_zpsnuwdcwcq.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/282C56C4-101A-4C7A-B8E6-E5066A1D460A_zpsnuwdcwcq.jpg.html)

1099's. :) 10" mid woofers and 99db sensitivity. No problem hitting clean reference levels.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: ronman79 on December 02, 2016, 01:08:33 PM
Very nice setup....Looking forward to the day, one day, when I'll have my own room.  Hopefully in the first Q of next year.....
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 02, 2016, 01:21:08 PM
Very nice setup....Looking forward to the day, one day, when I'll have my own room.  Hopefully in the first Q of next year.....

thank you...cant tell you how rewarding building this myself has been!!  I enjoy it with my son every night...and then after he goes to bed...I get to watch my own movies :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on December 02, 2016, 01:44:22 PM
thank you...cant tell you how rewarding building this myself has been!!  I enjoy it with my son every night...and then after he goes to bed...I get to watch my own movies :)
The build is half the fun!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 02, 2016, 02:45:49 PM
The build is half the fun!
there were a few days I didnt think so haha
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: ronman79 on December 02, 2016, 03:50:07 PM
I don't possess the construction expertise, but I'll have a good hand in the install of the technical side.  I love to tweak, set, install, etc.....then tweak some more!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 03, 2016, 08:00:51 AM
I don't possess the construction expertise, but I'll have a good hand in the install of the technical side.  I love to tweak, set, install, etc.....then tweak some more!

your looking at the first ever thing I built...I never in a million years thought I could do somthing like this...and there were a few days I thought it was going to come out terrible...but I surprised everyone...and mostly myself!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: ronman79 on December 03, 2016, 11:18:59 AM
your looking at the first ever thing I built...I never in a million years thought I could do somthing like this...and there were a few days I thought it was going to come out terrible...but I surprised everyone...and mostly myself!

WOW!  To that I say, well done, Sir!!!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 03, 2016, 12:19:19 PM
WOW!  To that I say, well done, Sir!!!

thanks!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: jkasanic on December 05, 2016, 04:43:41 PM
Brian, remind me again what you're driving those 1099's with?  Any hiss?
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: alangouger on December 05, 2016, 06:28:39 PM
Nice looking Theater, what a difference between before and after. Good work.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 06, 2016, 08:00:15 AM
Brian, remind me again what you're driving those 1099's with?  Any hiss?

zero hiss

I use emotiva xpa-100's....I only do this because i NEED 2 external amps to complete the 7.x.4 atmos..and I would rather have external amps driving the front 3 than overheads...and with the x7200wa its VERY fllexible which internal drive which speakers..

otherwise Id be using the Avr for all channels
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 06, 2016, 08:00:32 AM
Nice looking Theater, what a difference between before and after. Good work.

thanks so much!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: sdrucker on December 06, 2016, 02:55:13 PM
Hi Brian,
You'd mentioned at the beginning of this thread that your room is 10'10" x 16'5". I take it that the 16'5" is the length?

I see you also have a 130" diagonal 2.35 screen (corresponding to about 120" width). How far back is your MLP, and what's your viewing distance to screen width ratio?

Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 06, 2016, 04:03:35 PM
Hi Brian,
You'd mentioned at the beginning of this thread that your room is 10'10" x 16'5". I take it that the 16'5" is the length?

I see you also have a 130" diagonal 2.35 screen (corresponding to about 120" width). How far back is your MLP, and what's your viewing distance to screen width ratio?

viewing distance is about 11'...so a little less than 1:1...
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: sdrucker on December 06, 2016, 04:40:56 PM
viewing distance is about 11'...so a little less than 1:1...

Thx...good to know for perspective as I consider what screen size to do in the near future. With an AT screen in my 20'x15x9' (LxWxD) HT room, and a screen approximately 3' from the front, I'd be looking at a similar 11' to 12' viewing distance while leaving sufficient room behind me for the side/rear surround separation. So my guesstimate of 100" to 105" seems right at about a 1.2-1.3 screen width.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: jkasanic on December 06, 2016, 05:13:56 PM
viewing distance is about 11'...so a little less than 1:1...

Oh no, not this discussion AGAIN! ;) 1.3:1 (or was it 1.4?) and not an inch closer rings a bell...Haha.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 07, 2016, 08:17:21 AM
Oh no, not this discussion AGAIN! ;) 1.3:1 (or was it 1.4?) and not an inch closer rings a bell...Haha.

Huh?? :(
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: jkasanic on December 07, 2016, 11:06:22 AM
Huh?? :(
That was in reference to a former discussion with our buddy Keith!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on December 07, 2016, 11:31:49 AM
Thx...good to know for perspective as I consider what screen size to do in the near future. With an AT screen in my 20'x15x9' (LxWxD) HT room, and a screen approximately 3' from the front, I'd be looking at a similar 11' to 12' viewing distance while leaving sufficient room behind me for the side/rear surround separation. So my guesstimate of 100" to 105" seems right at about a 1.2-1.3 screen width.

You can go bigger if you like... Our AT screen is a 195" diagonal 2.4 aspect screen and we sit 12' from the screen. It is very immersive, and no eye strain at all. It all depends on where you like to sit in a theater. If you go AT screen...you could go full wall (like we did), and then see how big you like the screen. Once you decide what size you like matt it down to that size, and if you ever want to go bigger you don't have to buy a new screen. :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 07, 2016, 12:54:03 PM
That was in reference to a former discussion with our buddy Keith!

oh ahah...that went right over my head...sorry :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 07, 2016, 12:54:33 PM
You can go bigger if you like... Our AT screen is a 195" diagonal 2.4 aspect screen and we sit 12' from the screen. It is very immersive, and no eye strain at all. It all depends on where you like to sit in a theater. If you go AT screen...you could go full wall (like we did), and then see how big you like the screen. Once you decide what size you like matt it down to that size, and if you ever want to go bigger you don't have to buy a new screen. :)

yeah Im in this camp...if I wanted moderate size...i wouldnt have built an HT :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: sdrucker on December 07, 2016, 05:09:21 PM
You can go bigger if you like... Our AT screen is a 195" diagonal 2.4 aspect screen and we sit 12' from the screen. It is very immersive, and no eye strain at all. It all depends on where you like to sit in a theater. If you go AT screen...you could go full wall (like we did), and then see how big you like the screen. Once you decide what size you like matt it down to that size, and if you ever want to go bigger you don't have to buy a new screen. :)

Did you actually wind up using that full 195" diagonal (> 150" width)? How much got matted?

I was actually basing my seating distance on Nyal Mellor's article on viewing angles. The 1.2-1.3 width distance is fairly close to where we prefer to sit in a movie theater (roughly in the SMPTE reference space, about 1/2 way from the front +/- a row). However, I don't know how I'd feel the same way once we get 4K e-shift and UHD dialed in, but I'd probably be more conservative about screen size rather than being in the "go big or go home" group like Brian. My wife is less sensitive to big screen effect than me for some reason, and don't think our kids care either way.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314viewing-angles/


Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on December 07, 2016, 06:55:24 PM
Did you actually wind up using that full 195" diagonal (> 150" width)? How much got matted?

I was actually basing my seating distance on Nyal Mellor's article on viewing angles. The 1.2-1.3 width distance is fairly close to where we prefer to sit in a movie theater (roughly in the SMPTE reference space, about 1/2 way from the front +/- a row). However, I don't know how I'd feel the same way once we get 4K e-shift and UHD dialed in, but I'd probably be more conservative about screen size rather than being in the "go big or go home" group like Brian. My wife is less sensitive to big screen effect than me for some reason, and don't think our kids care either way.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314viewing-angles/
Yup, if you look at my thread it is the full 195" diagonal...not matted at all, just about a 3-4" velvet boarder around to conceal the aluminum frame. I don't plan on ever buying another screen unless i move to another house and get a bigger room.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on December 19, 2016, 10:20:46 AM
Got engaged to my wife 12 years ago today...and was looking at the pics of my condo...you can see my PJ setup..and the SVS cylinder sub in the corner :)

Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: Measured on January 15, 2017, 07:33:27 PM
Great job in a relatively small space. Those dark room colors and the low gain spandex screen must really take full advantage of JVC's contrast.
I have a similar sized room to yours but set it up in the opposite orientation. Have been seriously considering turning it 90 degrees for two reasons: 1) Longer projector throw distance & 2) To gain some distance to the rear surrounds.
I am concerned though that having only 11' of width will bring the side surrounds too close to the seating area.

Are your side surrounds located in line with your seating?
How high are they mounted on the wall?
Do you find Atmos adds much to the surround experience?
With less than 8 feet of headroom, do you find the Atmos speakers draw too much attention to themselves?
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on January 16, 2017, 07:53:18 AM
Great job in a relatively small space. Those dark room colors and the low gain spandex screen must really take full advantage of JVC's contrast.
I have a similar sized room to yours but set it up in the opposite orientation. Have been seriously considering turning it 90 degrees for two reasons: 1) Longer projector throw distance & 2) To gain some distance to the rear surrounds.
I am concerned though that having only 11' of width will bring the side surrounds too close to the seating area.

Are your side surrounds located in line with your seating?
How high are they mounted on the wall?
Do you find Atmos adds much to the surround experience?
With less than 8 feet of headroom, do you find the Atmos speakers draw too much attention to themselves?

Thank you! yes black levels are off the charts:)

my surrounds are about 45" from ground to driver...at about 92 degrees (guestimate) to the seating row

I found atmos from the beginning (I literally expanded the week it was released in new AVR's about 3 years ago) was an AWESOME addition...I never feel the speakers are apparant...just a nice sound bubble....see I feel the opposite was true when I saw ATMOS in a theater with 25' ceilings....with the "fold" atmos tailer (which i can directly compare to my setup with the demo disc) attention was really drawn to speakers on the cieling in the theater...as opposed to just another layer of sound in mine...

thanks again...and have fun...any other questions fire away
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: Measured on January 16, 2017, 12:49:12 PM
Thanks for the response. It is encouraging to read how happy you are with the setup. I imagine the Volts and their coaxial design help to bring everything together.
When you say 92 degrees, do you mean just slightly ahead of the seating or slightly behind?
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on January 16, 2017, 09:48:22 PM
I do think the coaxial design helps in the short distances
And by 92 degrees. They are ever so slightly behind the mlp

Yes again I absolutely LOVE my setup  it's been tr way it is for about a year now and I still get excited to go down nightly to watch a movie :)
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on June 28, 2017, 05:12:37 PM
Finally built a real rack instead of the reused end table
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/53335A57-CBC0-4D37-9599-8CE6B297413B_zpstmn55eb7.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/53335A57-CBC0-4D37-9599-8CE6B297413B_zpstmn55eb7.jpg.html)

Was able to clean up this rats nest
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b159/bcfineberg/BC848812-BA9F-4BCF-BB03-8A61FA130C77_zpsrd0ppop8.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/bcfineberg/media/BC848812-BA9F-4BCF-BB03-8A61FA130C77_zpsrd0ppop8.jpg.html)

Hahahaha
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSCraig on June 28, 2017, 06:30:49 PM
Good job cleaning up the rats nest !!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on June 29, 2017, 08:14:47 AM
That was 2 1/2 years of switching in and out components and not worrying about crossing wires. Yikes.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSMike on June 29, 2017, 11:13:33 AM
My wiring still does not look the best. I keep everything separated, but I do not have it all zip locked into place. I used to try and do that, but found myself always cutting it apart, since I make changes so often. So I just label everything and keep separated with minimal ties.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: NBPk402 on June 29, 2017, 08:24:18 PM
Nice flexible rack... I have built several of them over the years. My last one I bought aluminum tubing (painted flat black) and made sleeves to go between the nuts to clean up the look a bit more.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on July 01, 2017, 07:19:12 PM
Nice flexible rack... I have built several of them over the years. My last one I bought aluminum tubing (painted flat black) and made sleeves to go between the nuts to clean up the look a bit more.

cool idea!
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on January 17, 2018, 08:56:35 AM
SO little update.

replaced the Rs400 with a AVscience blowout brand new rs600 (thanks guys...marriage on the mend now that my PJ is sold)

The upgrade is astounding....if you have the means and can upgrade to at least the 500 level the differences are big!

not only in the 4x's contrast but the full p3 color reproduction of the WCG is for me the most notable increase with the insane blacks a very very close second

i am wow'd every time i turn it on.  now to create my OWN custom gamma....instead of the three preloaded ones which are awesome

i am saving my pennies for when chadb is doing a tour for him to come...$400 will be well spent
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: AVSMike on January 17, 2018, 11:27:22 AM
Yep, anybody that has a halfway decent room, should see a big improvement in the image, going to the 5 or 6 series. This is why the 5 series has outsold the 4 series (with us) for the last three years.
Title: Re: SadieMax cinema
Post by: bmoney on January 17, 2018, 12:40:39 PM
Yep, anybody that has a halfway decent room, should see a big improvement in the image, going to the 5 or 6 series. This is why the 5 series has outsold the 4 series (with us) for the last three years.

good to know....the 400 served me well as it allowed me to get into high end PJ and 4k video.

its also peace of mind that even though the model is 3 years old the rs600 with custom gamma isnt lacking in anything from the newest of models

I know this  has been said a million times...but i cant see me upgrading in the next 5 years.....unless something VERY groundbreaking comes along at almost no cost to upgrade after selling the rs600.  but i really think im getting close to diminishing returns at this point
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