AVS Discussions

Pro Cinema LS10500 3LCD Reflective Laser Projector with 4K Enhancement and HDR

Epson will be shipping the new LS10500 toward the end of December here in the US. This projector has increased light output with 4K sources, compared to the LS10000 and Epson has added HDR support. The Epson lasers are known for their smooth image and long lasting light sources.

Epson LS10500: https://epson.com/For-Home/Projectors/Pro-Cinema/Pro-Cinema-LS10500-3LCD-Reflective-Laser-Projector-with-4K-Enhancement-and-HDR/p/V11H873020KB

One thing you will need to keep in mind is this projector, just like the 300 and 600 series Sonys, can't do vertical stretch with 4K material. So if you use an A-lens, you will need to plan on having another device to do the vertical stretch.
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
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JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

My first unit was defect, I'm expecting a new one next weew short before christmas.

If you have a XBOX One S, it won't work with this model, we have to wait for an update from Microsoft.
Journalist and administrator for PJHC.FR (blog and forum about videoprojectors)

My first unit was defect, I'm expecting a new one next weew short before christmas.

If you have a XBOX One S, it won't work with this model, we have to wait for an update from Microsoft.

Be sure and post here about it. Looking forward to your review. :)
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

How can a 1500 Lumen projector ever be HDR capable.? Do they specify that on a 42" screen.?

Whats the minimum light on screen to be a HDR 10 certified device.?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 02:53:45 PM by stridsvognen »
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How can a 1500 Lumen projector ever be HDR capable.? Do they specify that on a 42" screen.?

Whats the minimum light on screen to be a HDR 10 certified device.?

While I agree with you that projectors - at least my RS600 - work better with HDR converted to SDR / wide color gamut, some people seem to be getting 1/2 way decent results watching with HDR, at least on smaller screens ( but not that small ).

 
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While I agree with you that projectors - at least my RS600 - work better with HDR converted to SDR / wide color gamut, some people seem to be getting 1/2 way decent results watching with HDR, at least on smaller screens ( but not that small ).

The thing i noticed in this regard is that its all pretty much subjective opinions.. And when people then share settings, its obvious that some are messing around without having a clue whats up or down, adjusting the HDR converter in one direction to later adjust contrast in the oposit direction, and so on.. Stuff thats all blacklisted if you do any sort of basic calibration establishing a black and white clipping point.

So while some think HDR looks grear at 20 or 25fl, wich is pretty close to optimum range for SDR mastered content, its so far from optimum from SMPTE 2084 content with a static gamma mastered to 1000 nit or more, wich you then try to compress down to below 100nit.

I miss some that objectively display some calibration and theori explaining how that is in any way preferable.. And the manufacture would be the obvious ones to do that.. But they seem to be happy just make the product accept a HDR signal.. And call it a HDR product.. Wich it wery well might be, but as i poked at before.. what scren size.. if its a 23" scren it might be better for people to buy a 65" OLED screen that will do 500-600 nit to experience HDR, and add a popup on the projectors that warn you that to get optimum video fidelity you should feed it SDR mastered content.. a bit oposit what they do when playing HDR on a non HDR monitor, wich often, even on 10 year old panels will easy do 200nit or more, way more HDR capable than any projector out there shooting on a decent HT screen..  Lets say from 100" -130"
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 04:55:38 PM by stridsvognen »
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

The thing i noticed in this regard is that its all pretty much subjective opinions.. And when people then share settings, its obvious that some are messing around without having a clue whats up or down, adjusting the HDR converter in one direction to later adjust contrast in the oposit direction, and so on.. Stuff thats all blacklisted if you do any sort of basic calibration establishing a black and white clipping point.

So while some think HDR looks grear at 20 or 25fl, wich is pretty close to optimum range for SDR mastered content, its so far from optimum from SMPTE 2084 content with a static gamma mastered to 1000 nit or more, wich you then try to compress down to below 100nit.

I miss some that objectively display some calibration and theori explaining how that is in any way preferable.. And the manufacture would be the obvious ones to do that.. But they seem to be happy just make the product accept a HDR signal.. And call it a HDR product.. Wich it wery well might be, but as i poked at before.. what scren size.. if its a 23" scren it might be better for people to buy a 65" OLED screen that will do 500-600 nit to experience HDR, and add a popup on the projectors that warn you that to get optimum video fidelity you should feed it SDR mastered content.. a bit oposit what they do when playing HDR on a non HDR monitor, wich often, even on 10 year old panels will easy do 200nit or more, way more HDR capable than any projector out there shooting on a decent HT screen..  Lets say from 100" -130"

Here is what Manni01 had to say about HDR on his projector (JVC):

"I know that I'm supposed to be on holiday but I had a bit of time to watch more content and I think I have found the best compromise for me for most movies.

When playing HDR the way we're supposed to (with peak white set to at least 100nits), I can't find an acceptable black floor, even with the iris at -7 in low lamp, I still find the fade to black grey.

When playing SDR BT2020 the way we've watched it until now, even playing with the DRC control down to -6 to limit the amount of clipping, I find the loss of colour saturation annoying, we get at best something between rec-709 and BT2020, but we're certainly not getting BT2020, at least not the way it shows in HDR BT2020.

I was switching between these two options before watching the new X-Men Apocalypse, and I decided to stay in HDR and lower my black floor just above what I have in SDR (without the DI of course). For me, I use -14 in SDR (BT2020 or rec-709) to get around 48nits reference white, so I closed the iris down to -13 (from -7, my latest HDR iris setting). This gives me around 70nits peak white. I set gamma D to +2 DG / +10 PT / +5 BG and contrast on the JVC to +10. Brightness on the JVC to 0, so I resolve 81 but not 77 (content black).

Again, testing a full black pattern (level 64) against hide doesn't mean that you're not raising the black floor. You are not raising the projector black floor, but you can be raising the content black floor if level 77 (content black at 0.005nits) shows brighter than level 64.

These settings give me full BT2020 gamut, so significantly better colours, and a very decent black floor. Not reference, but the advantage is that with the DI off, there is no DI artefact at all, which means a very stable picture. There is also less picture noise than when the iris is more open, so I find the picture more refined.

If you want to try, set the PJ to HDR but close the iris just above what you usually set for SDR rec-709. Set DRC in the Pana to -6 if you don't want to clip white in the content. Then adjust picture tone in Gamma D to get a comfortable reference white, and adjust BG / DG if necessary. Set contrast to anything between 0 and +14. I used +10, which clips content around 1500nits and still gives me a plenty bright picture.

I watched X-Men Apocalypse like this and it was phenomenal. Great color, good enough highlights (lots of fire, lights etc) good shadow detail and very decent black level (good enough for me to be worth the compromise over SDR). Overall, I prefer this picture to either 100nits+ HDR (raised black levels) or SDR BT2020 (desaturated colors). I think this is going to be my compromise to watch most SDR titles except the darkest ones until I find a better solution (Radiance Pro or MadVR when/if we can rip UHD titles to our HTPCs). I checked with The Shallows and it was also a better compromise (to my eyes).

Dave, we have a similar screen size/type, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this new compromise. I didn't think watching HDR with less than 100nits peak white was worth it, but my opinion is changing, I went from iris fully open high lamp (JVC's recommended) to -7 high lamp to -7 low lamp to -13 low lamp, and IMHO each step produces a better overall picture in HDR, because we gain the colors but are getting closer to the black level and native contrast we're used to. I now think that we should just forget about what's above 100nits and try to get the best picture overall. As most of the content is below 100nits anyway, I don't think we're losing much anyway except the occasional highlight, but we're gaining a lot all the time with much better colours. People with larger screen, not in a bat cave/loft (or with a different taste), YMMV of course. Jason, I'd like to hear how you like this on your huge high gain screen, as we both liked SDR BT2020 better than HDR, but that was before trying HDR with almost the same iris settings as rec-709.

Happy holiday (again) to everyone!"


Also Dave Vaughn:

"I've found the same with the Oppo with HDR and am still settling in. I watched Sully in HDR, low power with the IRIS at -7, brightness 0, Contrast +4, 10/4/5 on the HDR settings in the JVC (still working through these though). Black levels are actually quite good (I'm using a Firehawk 1.3 gain screen...what's your screen again?). On the downloaded HDR patterns, I can barely resolve 77 (if I'm up close to the screen) and I'm clipping the white levels at the 85% square (can't remember the actual number'd box though...I need to take better notes...I'm doing all this from memory). Anyway, I didn't feel the picture was too dim at all, but I still feel with more time and tweaking I could do better. I really want to set up two profiles--one for 1000 Nit transfers and the other for 4000 Nit ones.

Ah, the fun of being an early adopter!"
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 07:34:12 AM by AVSMike »
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

The review about the LS10000 1.1 aka LS10500  ;D is now online :

https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2016%2F12%2F25%2Ftest-epson-eh-ls10500%2F

It's not bright enough for big HDR picture. :(
Journalist and administrator for PJHC.FR (blog and forum about videoprojectors)

A little more on HDR with a projector, also from Manni:

"The min/max luminance values displayed by the Oppo are for the mastering display. They give little indication of the actual max luminance of the content. To get an idea of this, we need the MaxFALL and MaxCLL values (static metadata repectively for the brightest frame average and brightest pixel, for the whole movie/content), which the Oppo doesn't display. Many 4000nits mastered titles never go above 1000nits, because studios know that few consumer displays display anything above that, so they would rather play with the actual brightness available than with the theoretical one (4000nits is theoretical for consumer displays). Many titles go barely above 100nits.

Again, clipping content at 1000-1500nits for our projectors has very little drawbacks, and allows to have a single setting for all titles. Plus, it allows to have a bright enough picture while getting a decent black level, even in HDR. Unless you have ambiant light in a bright living room (in which case a JVC isn't the right PJ for you), chasing the brightness highlights is a pointless game when it has so many downsides re black floor, low APL scenes and native contrast.

Remember that home HDR was designed and mastered for flat panels in bright living rooms. NOT for projectors in bat caves. It sounds counter-intuitive, but HDR isn't the most desirable feature in UHD Blurays, at least for us. We should look for the best overall picture, not for the picture that shows content that was mastered for a completely different, non-optimised environment.

Clipping at 1000-1500nits means that 99% of the time, you clip nothing in real content and 1% of the time, you clip a few highlights in a non visible way. It's very similar to clipping above 235 in SDR. You lose barely anything (because most of the time it's simply not there, even in titles which occasionally reach above this) but you get a lot of brightness and native contrast back. Hence we can lower our black floor back to decent levels (only losing the DI, but not adding insult to injury raising the black floor and killing native contrast at the same time)."
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

AVSCraig

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A little more on HDR with a projector, also from Manni:

"The min/max luminance values displayed by the Oppo are for the mastering display. They give little indication of the actual max luminance of the content. To get an idea of this, we need the MaxFALL and MaxCLL values (static metadata repectively for the brightest frame average and brightest pixel, for the whole movie/content), which the Oppo doesn't display. Many 4000nits mastered titles never go above 1000nits, because studios know that few consumer displays display anything above that, so they would rather play with the actual brightness available than with the theoretical one (4000nits is theoretical for consumer displays). Many titles go barely above 100nits.

Again, clipping content at 1000-1500nits for our projectors has very little drawbacks, and allows to have a single setting for all titles. Plus, it allows to have a bright enough picture while getting a decent black level, even in HDR. Unless you have ambiant light in a bright living room (in which case a JVC isn't the right PJ for you), chasing the brightness highlights is a pointless game when it has so many downsides re black floor, low APL scenes and native contrast.

Remember that home HDR was designed and mastered for flat panels in bright living rooms. NOT for projectors in bat caves. It sounds counter-intuitive, but HDR isn't the most desirable feature in UHD Blurays, at least for us. We should look for the best overall picture, not for the picture that shows content that was mastered for a completely different, non-optimised environment.

Clipping at 1000-1500nits means that 99% of the time, you clip nothing in real content and 1% of the time, you clip a few highlights in a non visible way. It's very similar to clipping above 235 in SDR. You lose barely anything (because most of the time it's simply not there, even in titles which occasionally reach above this) but you get a lot of brightness and native contrast back. Hence we can lower our black floor back to decent levels (only losing the DI, but not adding insult to injury raising the black floor and killing native contrast at the same time)."

Exactly why using HDR - SDR BT.2020 has been giving all of the benefits of 4K UHD without the drawbacks ( of the HDR raised black levels ).

" To display an image HDR -we have explained in our article devoted to HDR rendering on a compatible projector must be light, lots of light "for a 4K TV, the HDR recommendations are 1,000 nits! For example to achieve this value should be a projector capable of displaying 300 fL is a brightness equivalent to 15,000 lumens! " - I rest my case !
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 11:03:29 AM by AVSCraig »
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And for UHD SDR the same gamma curve apply as HDR, the difference is the compression/ roleoff of the highlights, so depending the converter / Compressor there is just as well a recommendet, or optimal lightoutput you need to reach.

Anyone have the measured gamma SMPTE 2084 gamma curve feeding UHD SDR on the LS10500..?

My experience with clipping the UHD SDR output to compensate for missing lightoutput is quite bad, just a bit of clipping is instantly visible in face/ skin reflections.. My only experience is with the UB 900, not sure how the OPPO 203 do the HDR to SDR convertion..

The LS10500 must have a convertion build in for when you feed it a HDR signal.. How is that one working? measurements.?
The old BLACK IS Back..!!

AVSCraig

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Here is what Manni01 had to say about HDR on his projector (JVC):

"I know that I'm supposed to be on holiday but I had a bit of time to watch more content and I think I have found the best compromise for me for most movies.

When playing HDR the way we're supposed to (with peak white set to at least 100nits), I can't find an acceptable black floor, even with the iris at -7 in low lamp, I still find the fade to black grey.

When playing SDR BT2020 the way we've watched it until now, even playing with the DRC control down to -6 to limit the amount of clipping, I find the loss of colour saturation annoying, we get at best something between rec-709 and BT2020, but we're certainly not getting BT2020, at least not the way it shows in HDR BT2020.

I was switching between these two options before watching the new X-Men Apocalypse, and I decided to stay in HDR and lower my black floor just above what I have in SDR (without the DI of course). For me, I use -14 in SDR (BT2020 or rec-709) to get around 48nits reference white, so I closed the iris down to -13 (from -7, my latest HDR iris setting). This gives me around 70nits peak white. I set gamma D to +2 DG / +10 PT / +5 BG and contrast on the JVC to +10. Brightness on the JVC to 0, so I resolve 81 but not 77 (content black).

Again, testing a full black pattern (level 64) against hide doesn't mean that you're not raising the black floor. You are not raising the projector black floor, but you can be raising the content black floor if level 77 (content black at 0.005nits) shows brighter than level 64.

These settings give me full BT2020 gamut, so significantly better colours, and a very decent black floor. Not reference, but the advantage is that with the DI off, there is no DI artefact at all, which means a very stable picture. There is also less picture noise than when the iris is more open, so I find the picture more refined.

If you want to try, set the PJ to HDR but close the iris just above what you usually set for SDR rec-709. Set DRC in the Pana to -6 if you don't want to clip white in the content. Then adjust picture tone in Gamma D to get a comfortable reference white, and adjust BG / DG if necessary. Set contrast to anything between 0 and +14. I used +10, which clips content around 1500nits and still gives me a plenty bright picture.

I watched X-Men Apocalypse like this and it was phenomenal. Great color, good enough highlights (lots of fire, lights etc) good shadow detail and very decent black level (good enough for me to be worth the compromise over SDR). Overall, I prefer this picture to either 100nits+ HDR (raised black levels) or SDR BT2020 (desaturated colors). I think this is going to be my compromise to watch most SDR titles except the darkest ones until I find a better solution (Radiance Pro or MadVR when/if we can rip UHD titles to our HTPCs). I checked with The Shallows and it was also a better compromise (to my eyes).

Dave, we have a similar screen size/type, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this new compromise. I didn't think watching HDR with less than 100nits peak white was worth it, but my opinion is changing, I went from iris fully open high lamp (JVC's recommended) to -7 high lamp to -7 low lamp to -13 low lamp, and IMHO each step produces a better overall picture in HDR, because we gain the colors but are getting closer to the black level and native contrast we're used to. I now think that we should just forget about what's above 100nits and try to get the best picture overall. As most of the content is below 100nits anyway, I don't think we're losing much anyway except the occasional highlight, but we're gaining a lot all the time with much better colours. People with larger screen, not in a bat cave/loft (or with a different taste), YMMV of course. Jason, I'd like to hear how you like this on your huge high gain screen, as we both liked SDR BT2020 better than HDR, but that was before trying HDR with almost the same iris settings as rec-709.

Happy holiday (again) to everyone!"


Also Dave Vaughn:

"I've found the same with the Oppo with HDR and am still settling in. I watched Sully in HDR, low power with the IRIS at -7, brightness 0, Contrast +4, 10/4/5 on the HDR settings in the JVC (still working through these though). Black levels are actually quite good (I'm using a Firehawk 1.3 gain screen...what's your screen again?). On the downloaded HDR patterns, I can barely resolve 77 (if I'm up close to the screen) and I'm clipping the white levels at the 85% square (can't remember the actual number'd box though...I need to take better notes...I'm doing all this from memory). Anyway, I didn't feel the picture was too dim at all, but I still feel with more time and tweaking I could do better. I really want to set up two profiles--one for 1000 Nit transfers and the other for 4000 Nit ones.

Ah, the fun of being an early adopter!"


Dave Vaughn has an 88" screen - certainly small compared to most home theater owners.
Direct (585) 671-2972   craig@avscience.com
www.avscience.com
We carry projectors, screens, speakers, receivers etc. !!
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In my dedicated room, I have a CIH screen. My 16:9 is 92", so I can get pretty high nits on that screen. That is why I am interested in HDR. Now my family room screen is 16:9 and it is 127", so HDR on that screen is not going to do too good.
Mike Garrett
AV Science Sales
585-671-2968
mike@avscience.com

JVC, Sony, Epson, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Stewart, Seymour, Screen Innovations, Screen Excellence, DNP, Carada, Da-Lite, Vutec, Triad, SVS, Martin Logan, Def Tech, RBH, M&K and many other brands.

AVSCraig

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  • 933
  • Home Theater Lover / Sales / Advice
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Epson has begun shipping the Pro Cinema LS10500 4K Laser projector. Just FYI !
Direct (585) 671-2972   craig@avscience.com
www.avscience.com
We carry projectors, screens, speakers, receivers etc. !!
Twitter - @AVS_Craig

Journalist and administrator for PJHC.FR (blog and forum about videoprojectors)